EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. – Brian Burns is adhering to the long-time professional athletes' custom by insisting that a game against his former team is just another day at the office.
That team is the Carolina Panthers, for whom he played five seasons before being traded to the Giants on March 13. The teams meet Sunday in Munich, Germany.
"Business is business," Burns said. "Business happened. I'm happy where I am. I'm blessed."
Does the game carry special meaning or different emotions than any other?
"No, sir," he said. Moments later, he said, "Personally, I have my own thoughts about it. But I'm not going to make it any bigger than what the line and everything's going to be about it. It's just another game to me. I'm going to prepare the same way and plan to get a win in Germany."
He contends the game is no different even though the Panthers selected him in the first round of the 2019 NFL Draft. That he recorded 46.0 sacks in a Carolina uniform – at least 7.5 sacks every season - and was selected to the Pro Bowl in 2021 and 2022. That he still speaks to several former teammates and wished the game hadn't been moved from Charlotte to Europe. And the fact that he expected to be a Panther his entire career.
"Yeah, I did," he said. "I did."
But the Panthers are in rebuild mode and dealt Burns to the Giants for a second-round draft choice this year and a fifth rounder in 2025, plus a swap of 2024 fifth rounders.
Burns said he did ask to be traded. But he wasn't shocked when he was.
"Surprise? I wouldn't say a surprise," Burns said. "I would say you could kind of feel the direction it was going in. But no. Just to answer your question, I didn't ask for a trade."
This season, he has started every game and is third on the team with 5.0 sacks. And second with 11 quarterback hits.
"He's been a good addition for us," coach Brian Daboll said. "Good leadership, good player for us. Glad we got him."
As is Burns.
"Going into a new situation, you always want to look on the positive side of things," Burns said. "But football is football, and this is how it goes, sometimes it's how the cards fold. But overall, it's still a blessed opportunity and a blessed position I'm in."
The group of former teammates he speaks to includes (linebacker) Shaq (Thompson, currently on injured reserve), (cornerback) Jaycee (Horn), (defensive end) Yetur (Gross-Matos, now with San Francisco), and (linebacker Frankie) Luvu, now with Washington. I talk to all of my guys every now and then outside of football."
Any trash talk going on?
"Nah, we don't even really talk about football, honestly," Burns said. "I respect those people in that (Carolina) building, that organization. Like I said, I'm blessed. There isn't really too much to speak on. I'm happy where I am now and I'm just trying to make this team win."
Burns was asked how he's grown since leaving North Carolina and moving to New Jersey.
"I'd say, maybe from a holistic view," he said. "I kind of took on a different role coming here from when I was in Carolina. So just being able to adapt, I would say, is improvement.
"Coming from a place you were drafted; you work to become that guy and that leader of that defense to coming into a situation that has that guy or has other leaders already established. It's a different role and a different avenue you have to take to prove yourself. I feel like I did that, and I was able to adapt."
He intends to show that Sunday to his former team, while asserting the game carries no special emotion for him.
View photos of the Giants on the practice field at the Quest Diagnostics Training Center.


RB Tyrone Tracy Jr. (29)

ILB Bobby Okereke (58)

QB Daniel Jones (8)

S Tyler Nubin (31)

WR Wan'Dale Robinson (17)

G Jon Runyan Jr. (76)

Head Coach Brian Daboll

WR Malik Nabers (1)

ILB Darius Muasau (53)

TE Chris Manhertz (85)

S/ILB Isaiah Simmons (19)

C John Michael Schmitz Jr. (61)

LB Matthew Adams (49)

RB Tyrone Tracy Jr. (29)

RB Devin Singletary (26)

CB Tre Hawkins III (37)

CB Deonte Banks (3)

S Anthony Johnson Jr. (23)

S Raheem Layne (43)

WR Kearis Jackson (81)

CB Adoree' Jackson (21)

TE Chris Manhertz (85)

S Anthony Johnson Jr. (23)

WR Malik Nabers (1)

CB Adoree' Jackson (21)

WR Malik Nabers (1)

QB Daniel Jones (8)

RB Devin Singletary (26)

RB Tyrone Tracy Jr. (29)

QB Drew Lock (2)

CB Deonte Banks (3)

RB Eric Gray (20)

WR Kearis Jackson (81)

WR Isaiah Hodgins (18)

WR Jalin Hyatt (13)

WR Malik Nabers (1)

QB Drew Lock (2)

WR Ihmir Smith-Marsette (87)

WR Kearis Jackson (81)

QB Tommy DeVito (15)

WR Malik Nabers (1)

WR Ihmir Smith-Marsette (87)

WR Jalin Hyatt (13)

WR Malik Nabers (1)

QB Daniel Jones (8)

WR Isaiah Hodgins (18)

WR Jalin Hyatt (13)

S Dane Belton (24)

WR Kearis Jackson (81)
*Coach Brian Daboll spoke about the release of cornerback Nick McCloud, but more in terms of the player who replaced him on the roster.
"We thought that bringing Art Green up (from the practice squad) was a good move for us and that's what we did," Daboll said. "…Got a lot of respect for Nick, but that's a decision that we made. Bring Art up and he's kind of going to do some of those roles."
*Graham Gano and Jamie Gillan, the Giants' kicker and punter, respectively, practiced for the first time since they suffered hamstring injuries that forced them to miss multiple games. were listed as limited.
Each player was listed as limited and are working toward a return Sunday against the Panthers.
"I'm hopeful for both specialists, but we've got to see (them) out here doing it, working at it," coach Brian Daboll said.
Gano, sidelined for seven games, was hurt on the opening kickoff in Washington on Sept. 15, was designated for return, a formal step for players on injured reserve. The Giants have 21 days to active him or keep on I.R. for the remainder of the season.
Greg Joseph kicked in six games before being placed on injured reserve with an abdominal injury.
Gillan remained on the roster while missing four games after he was injured in practice on Oct. 10. Matt Haack has punted in his absence. Haack was released yesterday and signed to the practice squad today.
Tight end Theo Johnson (knee/back) and linebacker Ty Summers (ankle) were also limited.
Four players did not practice: defensive lineman Dexter Lawrence (veteran rest day), wide receivers Darius Slayton (concussion protocol) and Bryce Ford-Wheaton (Achilles), and guard Greg Van Roten (shoulder).
Slayton might stay behind when the team flies to Germany on Thursday.
"He could possibly not travel," Daboll said. "We'll see where he's at. That hasn't been decided yet, but if he's not progressing where he needs to progress, there's a chance we could not travel him."
View the top photos of outside linebacker Brian Burns' NFL career.


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New York Giants linebacker Brian Burns (0) celebrates with teammate safety Tyler Nubin (31) after sacking Seattle Seahawks quarterback Geno Smith (7) during the second half of an NFL football game, Sunday, Oct. 6, 2024, in Seattle. (AP Photo/John Froschauer)

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OLB Brian Burns (0) and Michael Strahan after Training Camp practice with the Detroit Lions at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

New York Giants linebacker Brian Burns (0) )during Training Camp practice at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

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New York Giants linebacker Brian Burns (0)n and New York Giants linebacker Kayvon Thibodeaux (5) during Training Camp practice at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants

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\New York Giants linebacker Brian Burns (0) and New York Giants offensive tackle Andrew Thomas (78) during Training Camp practice at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

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OLB Brian Burns (0) and Michael Strahan after Training Camp practice with the Detroit Lions at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

OLB Brian Burns (0) during Training Camp practice with the Detroit Lions at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

New York Giants linebacker Brian Burns (0) during Training Camp practice at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

New York Giants linebacker Brian Burns (0) during Training Camp practice at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

New York Giants linebacker Brian Burns (0) during Training Camp practice at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

OLB Brian Burns (0) during Training Camp practice with the Detroit Lions at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

New York Giants linebacker Brian Burns (0) during Training Camp practice at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

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Brian Daboll and Brian Burns during an OTA practice at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

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New York Giants linebacker Brian Burns (0) during an OTA practice at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

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Charlie Mullen talks to linebacker Kayvon Thibodeaux (5) and Brian Burns (0) during an OTA practice at the Quest Diagnostics training center in East Rutherford, NJ (Evan Pinkus\New York Giants )

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Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns lines up for a play during the first half of an NFL football game against the New Orleans Saints Sunday, Dec. 10, 2023, in New Orleans. (AP Photo/Butch Dill)

Carolina Panthers outside linebacker Brian Burns (0) celebrates a sack during an NFL game against the Houston Texans, Sunday, Oct. 29. 2023 in Charlotte, NC. {"DUNCAN BOONE" via AP)

Denver Broncos quarterback Russell Wilson (3) is sacked by Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) during an NFL football game on Sunday, Nov. 27, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Rusty Jones)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) reacts against the New Orleans Saints during an NFL football game Monday, Sept. 18, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns smiles after their win against the Atlanta Falcons in an NFL football game on Thursday, Nov. 10, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) tries to adjust to the ball carrier as he gets into the backfield during an NFL football game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Sunday, January 1, 2023, in Tampa, Fla. (AP Photo/Peter Joneleit)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) takes the field during player introductions prior to an NFL football game against the Pittsburgh Steelers, Sunday, Dec. 18, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

New Orleans Saints running back Tony Jones Jr. (34) is tackled by Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) during an NFL football game, Monday, Sep. 18, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) celebrates after making a stop on defense during an NFL football game against the New Orleans Saints, Monday, Sep. 18, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) celebrates a sack during an NFL football game against the Houston Texans on Sunday, Oct. 29, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Rusty Jones)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) on defense during an NFL football game against the Minnesota Vikings, Sunday, Oct. 1, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) points during the first half of an NFL football game against the Atlanta Falcons, Sunday, Sep. 10, 2023, in Atlanta. The Atlanta Falcons won 24-10. (AP Photo/Danny Karnik)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) lines up against the Atlanta Falcons during an NFL football game on Thursday, Nov. 10, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) reacts during an NFL football game between the Carolina Panthers and the Denver Broncos on Sunday, Nov. 27, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) on defense during an NFL football game against the Minnesota Vikings, Sunday, Oct. 1, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) celebrates after making a play on defense during an NFL football game against the Pittsburgh Steelers, Sunday, Dec. 18, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) lines up on defense during an NFL football game against the Minnesota Vikings, Sunday, Oct. 1, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Atlanta Falcons quarterback Marcus Mariota (1) throws under pressure from Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) during the first half of an NFL football game, Sunday, Oct. 30, 2022, in Atlanta. (AP Photo/Danny Karnik)

Dallas Cowboys running back Rico Dowdle (23) is tackled by Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) during an NFL football game, Sunday, Nov. 19, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) lines up on defense during an NFL football game against the New Orleans Saints, Monday, Sep. 18, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) plays against the Minnesota Vikings during an NFL football game Sunday, Oct. 1, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Detroit Lions quarterback Jared Goff looks to pass under pressure from Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns during the second half of an NFL football game between the Carolina Panthers and the Detroit Lions on Saturday, Dec. 24, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Rusty Jones)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) lines up during the first half of an NFL football game against the Atlanta Falcons, Sunday, Sep. 10, 2023, in Atlanta. The Atlanta Falcons won 24-10. (AP Photo/Danny Karnik)

Carolina Panthers defensive tackle Derrick Brown and linebacker Brian Burns tackle Miami Dolphins running back Raheem Mostert (31) during the second half of an NFL football game, Sunday, Oct. 15, 2023, in Miami Gardens, Fla. (AP Photo/Wilfredo Lee)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) works against New Orleans Saints offensive tackle Ryan Ramczyk (71) during an NFL football game, Monday, Sep. 18, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns forces a fumble by Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kyler Murray during the second half of an NFL football game on Sunday, Oct. 2, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) tackles Buffalo Bills quarterback Josh Allen (17) on the run in the first half of an NFL football game, Sunday, Dec. 19, 2021, in Orchard Park, N.Y. (AP Photo/Adrian Kraus)

Washington Football Team quarterback Taylor Heinicke (4) is sacked by Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) and linebacker Haason Reddick (43) during an NFL football game, Sunday, Nov. 21, 2021, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns celebrates after sacking Denver Broncos quarterback Russell Wilson during the first half of an NFL football game between the Carolina Panthers and the Denver Broncos on Sunday, Nov. 27, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Rusty Jones)

New England Patriots running back Damien Harris lays on the ground after getting tackled by Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns during the second half of an NFL football game Sunday, Nov. 7, 2021, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) celebrates a sack during an NFL football game against the San Francisco 49ers on Sunday, Oct. 9, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Cleveland Browns quarterback Jacoby Brissett is tackled by Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns during the first half of an NFL football game on Sunday, Sept. 11, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

San Francisco 49ers quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo (10) is hit by Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) and Carolina Panthers defensive end Marquis Haynes Sr. (98) after he passes the ball during an NFL football game, Sunday, Oct. 9, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns lines up against the Arizona Cardinals during an NFL football game in Charlotte, N.C., Sunday, Oct. 2, 2022. (AP Photo/Nell Redmond)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns forces a fumble by Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kyler Murray during the second half of an NFL football game on Sunday, Oct. 2, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns forces a fumble by Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kyler Murray during the second half of an NFL football game on Sunday, Oct. 2, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Tampa Bay Buccaneers running back Rachaad White (29) hangs on as Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns, top, makes the stop during the first half of an NFL football game Sunday, Oct. 23, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Buffalo Bills quarterback Josh Allen (17) is tackled on the run by Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) in the first half of an NFL football game, Sunday, Dec. 19, 2021, in Orchard Park, N.Y. (AP Photo/Adrian Kraus)

San Francisco 49ers quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo (10) is tackled by Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns during an NFL football game on Sunday, Oct. 09, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Rusty Jones)

Tennessee Titans quarterback Will Levis (8) is pressured by Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) during the first half of an NFL football game Sunday, Nov. 26, 2023, in Nashville, Tenn. (AP Photo/John Amis)

Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kyler Murray (1) passes under pressure from Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) during an NFL football game on Sunday, Oct. 02, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Rusty Jones)

Denver Broncos quarterback Russell Wilson gets sacked by Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns during the first half of an NFL football game between the Carolina Panthers and the Denver Broncos on Sunday, Nov. 27, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Rusty Jones)

Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kyler Murray is tackled by Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns during the first half of an NFL football game on Sunday, Oct. 2, 2022, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Rusty Jones)

Carolina Panthers outside linebacker Shaq Thompson, right, and defensive end Brian Burns, left, react after a defensive play against the New Orleans Saints during the second half of an NFL football game Sunday, Sept. 19, 2021, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (53) runs for a touchdown following a fumble during the first half of an NFL football game against the Jacksonville Jaguars in Charlotte, N.C., Sunday, Oct. 6, 2019. (AP Photo/Mike McCarn)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns reacts after making a tackle against the Arizona Cardinals during an NFL football game in Charlotte, N.C., Sunday, Oct. 2, 2022. (AP Photo/Nell Redmond)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns celebrates during the second half of an NFL football game against the New England Patriots Sunday, Nov. 7, 2021, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (53) lines up against Arizona Cardinals offensive tackle Jordan Mills (79) during the second half of an NFL football game, Sunday, Sept. 22, 2019, in Glendale, Ariz. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin)

Carolina Panthers defensive end Brian Burns (53) reacts following a play during the first half of an NFL football game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in Charlotte, N.C., Thursday, Sept. 12, 2019. (AP Photo/Mike McCarn)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (53) runs into the end zone for a touchdown during the first half of an NFL football game in Charlotte, N.C., Sunday, Oct. 6, 2019. (AP Photo/Mike McCarn)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (53) tackles Jacksonville Jaguars quarterback Gardner Minshew (15) forcing a fumble during the second half of an NFL football game in Charlotte, N.C., Sunday, Oct. 6, 2019. (AP Photo/Mike McCarn)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns enters the field before the start of an NFL football game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Sunday, Jan. 7, 2024, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Erik Verduzco)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) on defense against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers during an NFL football game, Sunday, Jan. 7, 2024, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns walks on the field following an NFL football game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Sunday, Jan. 7, 2024, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Erik Verduzco)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) reacts during an NFL football game against the New Orleans Saints, Sunday, Dec. 10, 2023, in New Orleans. (AP Photo/Tyler Kaufman)

Jacksonville Jaguars quarterback C.J. Beathard (3) runs with the ball and is sacked by Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) during an NFL football game, Sunday, Dec. 31, 2023, in Jacksonville, Fla. (AP Photo/Doug Murray)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) in action during an NFL football game against the Jacksonville Jaguars, Sunday, Dec. 31, 2023, in Jacksonville, Fla. (AP Photo/Gary McCullough)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) plays against the Atlanta Falcons during an NFL football game Sunday, Dec. 17, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) lines up on defense during an NFL football game against the Atlanta Falcons, Sunday, Dec. 17, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) eyes the quarterback before a snap at the line of scrimmage during an NFL football game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Sunday, Dec. 3, 2023, in Tampa, Fla. (AP Photo/Peter Joneleit)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) lines up on defense during an NFL football game against the Green Bay Packers, Sunday, Dec. 24, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Brian Westerholt)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) plays against the Atlanta Falcons during an NFL football game Sunday, Dec. 17, 2023, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Jacob Kupferman)

Tennessee Titans quarterback Will Levis (8) is pressured by Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) during the first half of an NFL football game Sunday, Nov. 26, 2023, in Nashville, Tenn. (AP Photo/George Walker IV)

Jacksonville Jaguars tight end Evan Engram is tackled by Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns during the first half of an NFL football game Sunday, Dec. 31, 2023, in Jacksonville, Fla. (AP Photo/John Raoux)

Tennessee Titans quarterback Will Levis (8) is pressured by Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns (0) during the first half of an NFL football game Sunday, Nov. 26, 2023, in Nashville, Tenn. (AP Photo/George Walker IV)

Carolina Panthers linebacker Brian Burns lines up for a play during the first half of an NFL football game against the New Orleans Saints Sunday, Dec. 10, 2023, in New Orleans. (AP Photo/Butch Dill)

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